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azboy25
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 5th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 4 |
| Mana: |  |
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 05:18 pm |
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| as were talking about discs, i can only assume that all ceramic disks are a fail as they all have cracks in them, even though audi says its ok for them to be cracked
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RFR
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 07:08 pm |
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Hi Guys,
There was a recent update to the manual for missing fuel cap, but only applied to Classes 1 & 2.
Cheers
RFR
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
| Mana: |  |
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 06:29 pm |
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Hi Wesley
Carried out a check of the regulations, no update for fuel cap missing?
David always
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 11:17 pm |
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Spongebob wrote: Wesley wrote:
I had a "Y" reg Mondeo in 12 months ago, the brake discs looked a lot better than the ones in the photos, They were slightly worn about 0.5 or 1mm at the most, hardly worth an Advisory.
However, 8 Months later, Mr Presenter took an 180 mile trip up the Motorway, On His return trip, He experienced Brake Judder, A Full Wheels Removed Inspection revealed Excessive Corrosion of The Cooling Vanes, resulting in The Brake Discs only being held in 4 places the same as In the photos.
Bearing in mind, A lot of presenters, only bring their vehicle in Once a Year.
In the Interests of Road Safety, Do You Think that the current Testing Standards and Requirements Are Acceptable, Or do they require A Review?
Regards, Wes.
I think you need to read the back of a VT20. Testable items assessed on the day of issue. How the hell are we meant to predict an event 8 months down the line?
As for presenters who only bring their cars in once a year, perhaps the government should be pushing for 6 monthly testing rather than 2 yearly and given the nanny state mentality of this lot they'd probably go for it.
Oh and the point about fuel cap missing being a RFR now, sadly only applies to motorbikes.
Have read it a Thousand times, I can Predict and Guarantee the fact that, If You Don`t Advise Mr Presenter of an Issue, He Will be Pissed Off!
And because We are from the UK, and all Human, We as residents from the UK normally tend to express our opinions through Our Feet!
Yes, If We go out to a Restauraunt for a meal, and We Don`t enjoy It, We normally tend to Avoid Confrontation Issues, And Walk Out! "Never To Return?"
All The Advertising in the World, Will not entice Him Back! But just to add to Your Loss, at no Extra Cost to You, I Predict He Will pop down "The Local" and tell all of His Mates!..............LOL
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 07:13 pm |
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I spoke to someone at VOSA some time back with regards the fuel cap situation, the problems I found with some people at VOSA is that they are not willing to concede a point or two when common sense clearly indicates that a problem exists.
He that's VOSA's Senior Management, "Probably knows nothing about Engineering at all" said that when a vehicle is presented with NO FUEL CAP fitted at time of presentation, the RFR to use is; (7.2.2a), then he said there is nothing wrong with the Regulations, cause I said there was, then he said that he could see how it would cause a problem, and the manual would be updated with "CAP MISSING".
Please do give me your views as Testers, because we are the real people who have to do this job for a living "safely", I think until such time the Regulations are updated we use the INTRODUCTION to the manual, and select the best REASON TO REFUSE the test, which I think is;
h) The condition of the vehicle is such that in the opinion of the NT, a proper examination would involve a danger to the persons "Health" injury, if a examination test of that part of the vehicle had been carried out. (slightly reworded) for the purpose.
In reality, send Brew lad next door to Halfords and pick a cap up and fit it?
David always
Last edited on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 07:15 pm by David
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keithd
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 12:28 pm |
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| having thought about it again Refusal to test vehicle on grounds that it woulb be dangerous to have in the workshop with no fuel cap fitted.
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keithd
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 07:40 am |
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| No fuel cap fitted - no seal
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Spongebob
Member
| Joined: | Thu Mar 27th, 2008 |
| Location: | Leeds |
| Posts: | 34 |
| Mana: |  |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 11:44 pm |
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Wesley wrote:
I had a "Y" reg Mondeo in 12 months ago, the brake discs looked a lot better than the ones in the photos, They were slightly worn about 0.5 or 1mm at the most, hardly worth an Advisory.
However, 8 Months later, Mr Presenter took an 180 mile trip up the Motorway, On His return trip, He experienced Brake Judder, A Full Wheels Removed Inspection revealed Excessive Corrosion of The Cooling Vanes, resulting in The Brake Discs only being held in 4 places the same as In the photos.
Bearing in mind, A lot of presenters, only bring their vehicle in Once a Year.
In the Interests of Road Safety, Do You Think that the current Testing Standards and Requirements Are Acceptable, Or do they require A Review?
Regards, Wes.
I think you need to read the back of a VT20. Testable items assessed on the day of issue. How the hell are we meant to predict an event 8 months down the line?
As for presenters who only bring their cars in once a year, perhaps the government should be pushing for 6 monthly testing rather than 2 yearly and given the nanny state mentality of this lot they'd probably go for it.
Oh and the point about fuel cap missing being a RFR now, sadly only applies to motorbikes.
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 12:23 am |
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Please do let me know I am not back in work until Wednesday, been off all week, got exam tomorrow afternoon, I may sound smart on here, but not sure about tomorrows exam?
David
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 11:54 pm |
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Hi David,
I beleive the system has been updated, and "Missing" Is an Option? Will Refer to the Manual, Tomorrow.
laters, Wes.
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 11:02 am |
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Hi Wesley
The Construction and Use Regulations are updated periodically and VOSA do advise us via computerization when these updates occur. The primary purpose of the MOT test is to ensure that the minimum standards of Road Safety have been met, at the time of inspection, and not at any other time, hence the VT32 is a very important document.
When a consumer purchases a vehicle to be used on UK Roads, it is their responsibility to ensure that the vehicle meets the requirements of the Road Traffic Acts; if they are unsure then any Garage they choose to inspect their vehicle should do so to the requirements of the manufacturer recommendations, and the current Road Traffic Acts. Remember you are offering your services as a competent person who the law deems to be an expert in that chosen area of expertise, no excuses. If you subcontract any work without the consumers written authority, you would still be held liable for any inconsistencies and or discrepancies.
If a consumer chooses after your written instructions to prevent any service and or repairs being carried out, under the 1982/1994 amended Acts, then the consumer is held accountable for the road worthiness of that vehicle, until a genuine receipt is given via a trade garage to show that the vehicle complies with current regulations, and the manufacturer recommendations. Hence the importance of security of your official garage documentation?
If the service and repairs carried out to the consumers vehicles were inline with these recommendations, and the quality of parts used were of good quality, then providing we are informed of manufacturer changes when necessary, and VOSA advise us how to inspect new systems, then the current Regulations really only need updates were experience has shown there to be a problem, for example, Regulations (7.2.2) does not make it clear which part of that regulation is to be used when a vehicle is presented with NO fuel cap fitted?
Thanks
David
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 12:18 am |
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David, Thanks for that, very informative.
I had a "Y" reg Mondeo in 12 months ago, the brake discs looked a lot better than the ones in the photos, They were slightly worn about 0.5 or 1mm at the most, hardly worth an Advisory.
However, 8 Months later, Mr Presenter took an 180 mile trip up the Motorway, On His return trip, He experienced Brake Judder, A Full Wheels Removed Inspection revealed Excessive Corrosion of The Cooling Vanes, resulting in The Brake Discs only being held in 4 places the same as In the photos.
Bearing in mind, A lot of presenters, only bring their vehicle in Once a Year.
In the Interests of Road Safety, Do You Think that the current Testing Standards and Requirements Are Acceptable, Or do they require A Review?
Regards, Wes.
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Sun Jun 1st, 2008 02:32 pm |
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Hi Wesley
Thanks for the email, I’ll try and be diplomatic and tactful as you say. (Whatever that means) At the beginning when we agreed to the approval of being MOT Testers, we agreed to be bound by “in those days” the Department for Transports rules. This means that the MOT scheme belongs to the now VOSA, and it is whether we like it or not “their standards to be applied”, based on their approval that we do not need to be competent mechanics, but may have needed to pass their “approved exam” and training course we therefore base our final decision, with respect to trying to interpret their Regulations?
How am I doing so far?
You are now shown how to inspect a vehicle with maybe 20 or so other blokes around you on the day, the trainer illustrates the routine, but does not discuss any relevant decisions of any testable items, but may ask for your feed back with regards any particular item brought to mind?
You then return to your VTS and again “in those days” after a period of time, you rang the area office to request a VE visit to approve you as a tester, who stands somewhere in the distance before making a final decision.
Now you conduct your first MOT Test with reference to the present photographs?
You are presented with the brake disc as shown, you ask, who am I making a decision on behalf of, i.e. who is telling me what decision I should be making, the manufacturer, VOSA or my own opinion?
You now look at the brake disc and ask what decision should I make? VOSA say look in the MOT manual, so lets look at Regulation (3.5.1h), what does it tell us?
A brake disc or drum insecure, cracked or excessively scored, pitted or worn. What else do the Regulations say?
Taking each in turn; is the brake disc when inspected as apart of the MOT test insecure, no, then nothing there to consider. Is the brake disc cracked or excessively scored, no, is it pitted or worn, yes there is some wear that has taken place, but how much?
The criteria to be asked then, is the disc “worn excessively”, what does this mean, that the brake disc pads have worn the rubbing surfaces away to produce a hole, has this occurred, no, therefore can you prove that the brake disc has clearly been weakened by your opinion of what you see?
What do I do now?
Make a written note on your VT40 with regards the regulation (3.5.1h), noting anything you have seen, i.e. discs becoming worn on their rubbing surfaces, corrosion is present but not considered excessive, rubbing faces are burned in places around their circumference.
Conducting a Roller Brake test, if this is the required method
Again using the Regulations (3.7A.1 – 9/3.10) carry out a full brake test and record all readings. If the minimum requirements have been met, as far as the MOT Test is concerned, at that moment in time, the minimum standards have been considered to have been satisfactory.
Now although not part of the test, you may wish to carry out a Road test to conclude the opinion of what you have seen. If during this road test the vehicle does not feel safe when driven, and maybe carry out a Decelerometer test, then based on your experience of testing, if you choose to issue a VT30 with respect to the evidence observed, I don’t think you would be reproached by VOSA.
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 1st, 2008 01:10 am |
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Hi David, sorry to Burst your Bubble, and Bore You with Brake Issues..?
Now, Take into Consideration, That during Your MOT Inspection, You Cannot Visually See the Corrosion depicted in the photo`s, Because they havent Yet Disintegrated!
You, With Your "MOT Testers" Hat On, and Not Your "Service Hat" on, And without removal of roadwheels, and You can Only See the Brake Disc Faces, How Do They Appear to You?
Wes.
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Sat May 31st, 2008 11:44 am |
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Weetabix
Those pictures are very clear, just imagine a Garage had serviced that vehicle and the customer had then driven off with a verbal conversation like he did not require them to be changed?
Next the brakes fail and he has hit a pedestrian, the law compounds the vehicle and the customer has said I just had it serviced by Garage X. The customer has a receipt from Garage X but no written advice, in that case Garage X is nicked?
This is a good example to explain the differences between manufacturer service standards and the MOT test standards, when both done correctlly there is no issues to raise?
Last edited on Sat May 31st, 2008 12:27 pm by David
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Sat May 31st, 2008 11:36 am |
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Hi Robin
Firstly complaining to the garage chain probably wouldn't make any difference unless they have a good "Quality control system" in place,and they adhere to it?
Secondly there are many different views with regards VOSA and the scheme, I think that possibly a great deal of us testers believe that its a case of "them and us".
Some testers may be surprised to learn that disciplinary action could also be brought against a VE for not doing his job correctly, but i here you saying, what does that mean?
A Vehicle Examiners job is to ensure that you comply with the minimum standards as laid down in the Regulations, (Notice I said MINIMUM) we can all read "I hope" but this does not advise a VE how a person thinks and interprets the condition of components, so if one testers views are different than anothers, somebody must have got it wrong?
If in your case Robin you had chosen to appeal, this does not necessarily mean that the tester would have disciplinary action brought against him, VOSA would conduct an appeal test, the VE in question would then need to make a decision regarding the brake discs based on his/her experience, if that turns out differently than the testers views, the tester is then given the opportunity to advise the VE why his decision was made a particular way. Who knows the VE might even make a wrong decision. it really does point back to a persons experience at the end of the day.
From your point of view if the tester is right, you loose your fee, if the tester is wrong, you get your fee returned, and therefore you do not pay for two MOT tests.
If it is clear to the VE that the tester did not understand how much wear could be applied to the discs before failing, the VE may not take any disciplinary action, but recommend training, which needs a rethink?
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 11:50 pm |
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Weetabix wrote: This disc fell apart when as the brake caliper was taken off when the vehicle was presented for a brake pad change. The two halves seemed to be only until recently held together at 4 points.
Question: If this disc was still in one piece when presented for testing, what would we all consider to be the test outcome ?
Thanks Mate My Point Exactly! Wes.Last edited on Fri May 30th, 2008 11:51 pm by Wesley
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Weetabix
Guest
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 11:33 pm |
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This disc fell apart when as the brake caliper was taken off when the vehicle was presented for a brake pad change. The two halves seemed to be only until recently held together at 4 points.
Question: If this disc was still in one piece when presented for testing, what would we all consider to be the test outcome ?
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Johnboy
Member
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 11:04 pm |
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Hi Robin,
Glad you've resolved the issue with your MOT, you mention that a 'garage chain' did the first MOT, there was a post on this forum recently regarding similar problems with a national tyre/exhaust/MOT chain of garages, don't suppose the name of the chain has initials K.F. by any chance?
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 11:04 pm |
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David wrote: Hi
Many testers and or peoples views on this sight appear to me to be advising of the manufacturer minimum recommendations as a guidline to issue a VT30 (Fail) notice. I am quite confident that the tester doing this is either not understanding the minimum standards to be applied, or seems to think that the manufacturer service standards are to be applied at time of test (MOT).
Whatever it is that causes a tester to think that way I don't know, but if the tester were to think about "safety factors" the manufacturer have to build into vehicle components, the actually forces applied to the brake discs from the brake calipers and pads, the reaction forces from the rolling road and the tyres, wheels, hubs etc, the shear forces involved are considerable high, so using common sense, if the manufacturer recommnedations to change the discs were vitally correct, and nobody changed them every time you could see surface wear present, every vehicle on the road would be in a dangerous condition, and VOSA would have major problems, and the civil and criminal claims would be billions per year.
This problem as I see it is down to Government attitude towards training, the styles of training and understanding testers ways of thinking, it really does point back to VOSA at the end of the day to retrain testers.
Well observed and well Stated. Meanwhile a little more tact and diplomacy in your postings would be appreciated.
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