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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2008 03:14 pm |
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I think you missed my point I was trying to make, somebody mentioned differences between "service standards" and "minimum standards", with regards exhaust emissions, I asked is there a minimum standard?
Sometimes when I post I do write subjects in a way to see how they might be interpreted, some may just quote the book, others may see things differently?
So with regards emissions, do we have a manufacturer recommendation, and a definitive National minimum standard the same for all, no we have a default full cat test, and on some older vehicles if no engine code can be found, we test to none cat standards, and we used to have to decide between none passenger carrying vehicles and goods vehicles for the minimum standards to be applied, which on the exhaust emissions tester is still present, but has been deleted for newer vehicles?
So the in service exhaust emissions standards for road vehicles is not in all cases the minimum standard to be applied then, eh?
David
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Spongebob
Member
| Joined: | Thu Mar 27th, 2008 |
| Location: | Leeds |
| Posts: | 34 |
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 09:15 pm |
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Yes quite clearly the minimum standard is to meet the parameters specified within the manual and/or relevant emission data book (volume 14 I think now) depending which type of fuel you are testing and what type of vehicle.
For an MOT tester David you do spend an awful lot of time questioning what we do and why. Have you considered a career change if it irks you so much?
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 09:07 pm |
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With exhaust emissions, is there a minimum standard?
David
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kev1975
Trade Member
| Joined: | Wed Sep 5th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 324 |
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 05:35 pm |
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RFR wrote: Hi Wesley,
totally agree, with your comments, wish I could of strung it together like that.
We are asked to apply EU regs as laid out in our new 14th edition emmision books and thats it.
There are no ifs or buts.
If it meets it passes
If it does not it fails.
We all spend ages moaning about how low the minimum standards are and then when a vehicle will not meet it we will try and do what we can to fudge it and get it through. We cannot have it both ways and for me I do the test as laid out, and if that means a pass or fail thats it. I can then say, that I have done what is asked and done it correctly. No worries.
rfr
sounds fair enough to me
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RFR
Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 10:50 am |
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Hi Wesley,
totally agree, with your comments, wish I could of strung it together like that.
We are asked to apply EU regs as laid out in our new 14th edition emmision books and thats it.
There are no ifs or buts.
If it meets it passes
If it does not it fails.
We all spend ages moaning about how low the minimum standards are and then when a vehicle will not meet it we will try and do what we can to fudge it and get it through. We cannot have it both ways and for me I do the test as laid out, and if that means a pass or fail thats it. I can then say, that I have done what is asked and done it correctly. No worries.
rfr
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 01:32 am |
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David wrote: HI RFR
Look at this example from VOSA and please do advise us were they inform us in VSI?
I wanted to included a list, but for some reason the forum will not upload it, its only 59 bytes in size as well. So to pick on just one, Fiat Punto registered 2007 were they say that the brakes may fail, now anybody can have an mot test anytime they like, they do not need to wait until the vehicle is three years old, on the list there are many differing examples of problems found after the manufacturer has released the vehicles for sale, it is no surprise then that in the light of experience they may have to amend requirements and give advice in journals, and yes VOSA do pass this info onto professional trade associations like the Assessors, just maybe VOSA think that the mot scheme either don't require the info on VSI, or in their own world believe the scheme don't need the info?
Recently I have had two vehicles with what I thought were brake faults, one was a Transit, and the other was a Toyota Rav4, both vehicles service brake travelled to the end of the working stroke when the rear wheels were in the rollers being operated, and the Rad4 service brake pedal feel on first application travelled to the end of its stroke, although could not reach the floor, the customer returned back to Toyota before presenting for a retest, I must say the pedal didn't feel that much better when in the rollers?
Is this a characteristic or is this a fault?
David
David,
An Awful Lot of What You Are Saying, is Available on VOSA Website! In the Vehicle Recall Section.
A Lot of What You are Stating, Is "Probably" Correct.
BUT, "Let`s," "Refer to The Manual"!
Are We Testing To "Service Specifications"?
Or are "We", "Testing to the "Minimum Required "Standards" As Laid Out, "In" "The Manual"?
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 01:10 am |
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Yeah,
The secondary latch seizes up! and allows Bonnet to "Flip Up"!
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RFR
Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 09:55 pm |
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Hi David,
I'm lost with you first question, and how have we jumped from emmisions to brakes?
rfr
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kev1975
Trade Member
| Joined: | Wed Sep 5th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 324 |
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 07:55 pm |
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i was quite shocked to see that they have included a mention of the bonnet issues in the renault clio vsi .
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 06:26 pm |
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HI RFR
Look at this example from VOSA and please do advise us were they inform us in VSI?
I wanted to included a list, but for some reason the forum will not upload it, its only 59 bytes in size as well. So to pick on just one, Fiat Punto registered 2007 were they say that the brakes may fail, now anybody can have an mot test anytime they like, they do not need to wait until the vehicle is three years old, on the list there are many differing examples of problems found after the manufacturer has released the vehicles for sale, it is no surprise then that in the light of experience they may have to amend requirements and give advice in journals, and yes VOSA do pass this info onto professional trade associations like the Assessors, just maybe VOSA think that the mot scheme either don't require the info on VSI, or in their own world believe the scheme don't need the info?
Recently I have had two vehicles with what I thought were brake faults, one was a Transit, and the other was a Toyota Rav4, both vehicles service brake travelled to the end of the working stroke when the rear wheels were in the rollers being operated, and the Rad4 service brake pedal feel on first application travelled to the end of its stroke, although could not reach the floor, the customer returned back to Toyota before presenting for a retest, I must say the pedal didn't feel that much better when in the rollers?
Is this a characteristic or is this a fault?
David
Last edited on Fri Aug 1st, 2008 09:37 pm by David
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RFR
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 10:49 pm |
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Hello,
I know what you are saying and I understand what Ramovalizer is saying, but the test is the test, when can I go to the University libriary to check up on this issue and what am I looking for, is their a section in the autodata, listing the speed at which a vehicle should be revved to get it through the dsm, when it should meet it anyway.
We will, I suppose have to agree to disagree and I'll send all mine to you, for I have no get out clauses in the regulations or the manual and so if it cannot meet EU regulations then it fails "end of". If they go the other way then SN 4-2008 deals with error or nil readings. Every vehicle must have the same standards applied, otherwise the whole thing is pointless.
PS. remember the manual also tells us that regardless of measured density we can still fail it for smoke, so if we bodge it on the dsm to get a pass for our mondeo, then if it is emmitting dense smoke to the fail criteria (tokyo smog) then I am going to fail it anyway.
happy days
rfr
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David
Banned
| Joined: | Mon May 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 376 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 05:54 pm |
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Hi RFR,
Removalizer seems to have got the understanding of what I am getting at. Your point with regards receiving the information is a good point, it would be better if VOSA had informed the scheme of some diesels going into excess fuel at max revs.
Manufacturer journals are available in Univeristy libraries, once you have recieved the info there are contact details for information, sometimes this information is only given out to post graduates who have completed engineering courses, the other source of information is normally found in diesel technical manuals from Autodata.
Hope this helps
David
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removalizer
Trade Member
| Joined: | Tue Feb 12th, 2008 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 08:39 am |
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try revving a mondeo diesel to its governor, it would never pass looks like Tokyo smog in rush hour
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 12:07 am |
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kev1975 wrote: I always rev to the governor , some vehicles tend to not register on the machine even when hitting governor limit (307 hdi etc)
these can be fun to get the machine to be happy with the readings.
Guys,
Here we are, as above, latest vehicles with "Zero" road tax are upon us!
Their Emissions Outputs, Are Minimal and even The Latest Gas Analysers are struggling to manage any Readings at all, Bluetooth or Not.
I Always rev to the governor, but for the most minimal amount of time to allow the DSM to Register, So My first depression of the pedal is indeed progressively applied and then held for one second only, If the DSM Won`t register, then a longer period is required.
Yes It Would be a good Idea for VOSA and Siemmens to get "Their Act Together" and Utilise The VSI Option, Until Then, "Discression Rules!"
Laters, Wes.
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RFR
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 10:08 pm |
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Hi David,
OK, BUT, what publications and from where, this would mean we all do different things. Should the info for following manufactures info, THEN come from VOSA through VSI. I am not privvy to info that others may have, as I may have info that others are not privvy too.
Do I need to check every vehicle, I do a dsm test on, AND WHO DO I CHECK WITH?
So I am back too, where does it tell me to do otherwise, for the manual is quite specific. and the test is an eu regulation that all manufactures must meet. If the vehicle will not meet it then it must fail?????? Otherwise its one rule for one and one for another.
rfr
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David
Banned
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 09:29 pm |
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VOSA's manual does not specifically advise of such action, however, when standards are to be applied, VOSA rely on the manufacturer for their recommendations for the correct standards to be applied, hence the testers manual is a guide to testing and not a definitive standard.
If the vehicle manufacturer in any technical publication advises of their operating perameters to be applied, then if these are different than VOSA's, if you have any element of doubt, you may after reading wish to take that up with VOSA, or if your experience tells you differently, you may apply the manufacturer recommendations.
One must always think about who would be right, VOSA have said in the past in Matters of Testing that they rely on the manufacturer for the correct standards to be applied, therefore in the light of any claim for damage or appeal, VOSA would rely on the manufacturer and advise you that as previously said, the manual is a guide only?
David
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RFR
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 09:10 pm |
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Where does it allow us to stop short of governed speed ?
RFR
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David
Banned
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 06:44 pm |
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I have a DGA 2500 model, in my experience with diesels I have found that some, not all, if you rev to the governed limit seem to go into what I understand as overfuel status. Having read some manuafacturer journals they advise that some types of diesel systems go into excess fuel even at normal operating temperature if you hold the engine speed at maximum governed for any length of time.
When I carry out checks on diesels, I do check the governed speed as required, but when testing the emissions, I progressively apply the throttle pedal stroke and try to stop just before governed speed, most diesels seem to pass this way quite easily.
David
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 11:47 pm |
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Some Manufacturers as far back as 1993, State, "Do Not Rev Engine" On The Govenor, "Under No Load Conditions" For more than "One Second"! Peugeot being One Of Them.
Our "Sun DGA2500" Will allow a Window of about "Five Seconds" "Death Rattle"? Not for Me! Obviously Only for the "Bravehearts"!
At Latest Refresher, Local Dealer Representative, Enquired about Newer Vehicles, from the Neighouring breed, "Renault", Apparently "They" are struggling to get any readings, At All?
Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 11:51 pm by Wesley
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removalizer
Trade Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 28th, 2008 12:57 pm |
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my machine will let you you pass it at 1500rpm
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